Can I save this tool
Quote from Tim Rauch on June 29, 2017, 10:44 amA while back I purchased some old carving tools on line. Mostly they have proven to be very nice but one of them has given me problems. The metal is very brittle. I can sharpen it to a fine edge but as soon as I use it the edge gets ragged. It's like the metal is crystalized and pieces crumble off. I love this gouge but I've given up on using it. Is there some way to retemper the steel and make it less brittle?
A while back I purchased some old carving tools on line. Mostly they have proven to be very nice but one of them has given me problems. The metal is very brittle. I can sharpen it to a fine edge but as soon as I use it the edge gets ragged. It's like the metal is crystalized and pieces crumble off. I love this gouge but I've given up on using it. Is there some way to retemper the steel and make it less brittle?
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Quote from Ted Reischl on June 29, 2017, 4:30 pmOdd looking tool. . . appears someone tried to turn it into a semi fishtail?
It is entirely possible they overheated it and then did a rapid quench which can result in what you accurately describe as really brittle.
You could do a little reading up here on the internet about heat treating and quenching and possibly fix this tool. A propane torch could certainly heat it up enough and a can of motor oil could be used for the quench. I see them do it all the time on a show called "forged in fire" with knives and swords. I think the trick is you have to get it heated to the right color, then quench.
Hey, what do you have to lose? It is not working for you the way it is!
Odd looking tool. . . appears someone tried to turn it into a semi fishtail?
It is entirely possible they overheated it and then did a rapid quench which can result in what you accurately describe as really brittle.
You could do a little reading up here on the internet about heat treating and quenching and possibly fix this tool. A propane torch could certainly heat it up enough and a can of motor oil could be used for the quench. I see them do it all the time on a show called "forged in fire" with knives and swords. I think the trick is you have to get it heated to the right color, then quench.
Hey, what do you have to lose? It is not working for you the way it is!
Quote from MaryMay on June 29, 2017, 5:04 pmI know that carving gouges are often only tempered towards the blade - sometimes only 1/4 to 1/2 inch. I was told if the entire shank was tempered it could become brittle and potentially break - not the safest tool at that point. If a tool has been ground past this small, tempered section, you may have ground the tempered section away. The tool looks to be full length, however. So I think Ted Reischl is correct - the shape is odd and it appears that it was ground to reshape the shank. I have never re-tempered a tool, but it certainly sounds like this is what is needed. So experiment with it. There are certain colors to heat it to that mean a particular hardness, but I've never gone there. But yes... google and youtube is great for that. Unless someone here has more information.
I know that carving gouges are often only tempered towards the blade - sometimes only 1/4 to 1/2 inch. I was told if the entire shank was tempered it could become brittle and potentially break - not the safest tool at that point. If a tool has been ground past this small, tempered section, you may have ground the tempered section away. The tool looks to be full length, however. So I think Ted Reischl is correct - the shape is odd and it appears that it was ground to reshape the shank. I have never re-tempered a tool, but it certainly sounds like this is what is needed. So experiment with it. There are certain colors to heat it to that mean a particular hardness, but I've never gone there. But yes... google and youtube is great for that. Unless someone here has more information.
Quote from Tim Rauch on June 29, 2017, 10:27 pmThanks. I ground the tool to the fishtail shape on a grinding wheel running in a water bath so it didn't overheat. As you say I guess I can't get worse so I'll try to fix the temper. I've never seen a carving tool with a handle like this one. It's a #5 made in England by S.J. Addis
Thanks. I ground the tool to the fishtail shape on a grinding wheel running in a water bath so it didn't overheat. As you say I guess I can't get worse so I'll try to fix the temper. I've never seen a carving tool with a handle like this one. It's a #5 made in England by S.J. Addis
Quote from Ted Reischl on June 30, 2017, 9:46 amTim, just had a brain, well, you know....if you can find a blacksmith in your area he could probably do it for you.
I looked up Addis on line, they were quite famous tool makers. I don't think I could have taken that tool to a grinding wheel. Of course, that is just me. I happened to be at the Woodcraft in Raleigh a week or so ago, sheeeesh, fishtail gouge prices are high, typically about $10 more than the equivalent straight chisel.
Tim, just had a brain, well, you know....if you can find a blacksmith in your area he could probably do it for you.
I looked up Addis on line, they were quite famous tool makers. I don't think I could have taken that tool to a grinding wheel. Of course, that is just me. I happened to be at the Woodcraft in Raleigh a week or so ago, sheeeesh, fishtail gouge prices are high, typically about $10 more than the equivalent straight chisel.
Quote from Tim Rauch on June 30, 2017, 1:49 pmIt's all Mary's fault. She's the one who got us all using fishtails. A while back I ordered a fishtail gouge from Chipping Away. I got a response from them saying they were out of stock due to the popularity of fishtail gouges since Mary started her school.
It's all Mary's fault. She's the one who got us all using fishtails. A while back I ordered a fishtail gouge from Chipping Away. I got a response from them saying they were out of stock due to the popularity of fishtail gouges since Mary started her school.
Quote from MaryMay on June 30, 2017, 3:33 pmI humbly accept full responsibility... but they're great tools, aren't they??
I humbly accept full responsibility... but they're great tools, aren't they??
Quote from Wally Warnke on July 2, 2017, 6:38 pmTim, when you ground the sides of that tool to produce the fishtail, did you also grind the edge angle back to be thinner than the original? It could be possible there's nothing wrong with the hardness and temper of the steel but the edge is ground too thin to stand up under use. I ran into that exact situation recently with a carving knife. On the advice of a friend I honed the blade back as thin as possible by laying it flat on the stone. Extremely sharp, would shave arm hair with a whisper, but the edge simply crumbled on the first use in basswood. Once honed back to a bit fatter edge it works fine again.
Tim, when you ground the sides of that tool to produce the fishtail, did you also grind the edge angle back to be thinner than the original? It could be possible there's nothing wrong with the hardness and temper of the steel but the edge is ground too thin to stand up under use. I ran into that exact situation recently with a carving knife. On the advice of a friend I honed the blade back as thin as possible by laying it flat on the stone. Extremely sharp, would shave arm hair with a whisper, but the edge simply crumbled on the first use in basswood. Once honed back to a bit fatter edge it works fine again.
Quote from Tim Rauch on July 4, 2017, 10:59 pmThanks. I did square up the edge on the wet grinder but the angle is the same as my other gouges. I think it's around 20 degrees. I put an inside bevel on it so the edge is actually more than 20 degrees.
Thanks. I did square up the edge on the wet grinder but the angle is the same as my other gouges. I think it's around 20 degrees. I put an inside bevel on it so the edge is actually more than 20 degrees.
Quote from Dan Krager on November 29, 2017, 8:12 pmAddis tools tend to be brittle and it would be easy to push one over the edge. I agree with Ted, I would never consider reshaping an Addis. They are as much collectors items as users because I understand they are no longer made.
First I would ask what bevel angle do you have? 30° is optimum, for hard and soft woods, 25° for soft woods. If the bevel is too shallow, you won't be able to keep the edge from breaking if you pound on it. Shaving should be OK though if you don't lever or pry with it.
Retemper as a last resort. Yes, it is an art requiring skill and experience to do it well. I have found that a propane torch just will not produce enough heat for tempering a tool in the open air with a cross section exceeding 1/4 square inch. You might be able to draw down the temper with it, but a MAPP or acetylene torch may be needed to get the original temper, or a coffee can forge. Apply the heat about 1" from the end and keep it away from the sharp edge. It needs to be about 900°, bright cherry red, and have lost all magnetic properties in that first inch before quenching. There is some difference between quenching in (motor) oil and water, where water quenches super quickly and shocks the metal to maximum hardness= very brittle. Oil, not so aggressive, but the tool will still need to be drawn down. Polish with 320 paper till shiny, reheat to straw color on the shiny and re-quench. This should make the tool tough and pretty hard, maybe in the low to mid 60 Rockwell if you're lucky. Your tool, should it need anything, maybe just needs to be drawn down. It's already too hard. But think long and hard about the angles and how you are using it first. Levering is not permitted on my tools unless it is a heavy mortise chisel.
Good luck.
DanK
Addis tools tend to be brittle and it would be easy to push one over the edge. I agree with Ted, I would never consider reshaping an Addis. They are as much collectors items as users because I understand they are no longer made.
First I would ask what bevel angle do you have? 30° is optimum, for hard and soft woods, 25° for soft woods. If the bevel is too shallow, you won't be able to keep the edge from breaking if you pound on it. Shaving should be OK though if you don't lever or pry with it.
Retemper as a last resort. Yes, it is an art requiring skill and experience to do it well. I have found that a propane torch just will not produce enough heat for tempering a tool in the open air with a cross section exceeding 1/4 square inch. You might be able to draw down the temper with it, but a MAPP or acetylene torch may be needed to get the original temper, or a coffee can forge. Apply the heat about 1" from the end and keep it away from the sharp edge. It needs to be about 900°, bright cherry red, and have lost all magnetic properties in that first inch before quenching. There is some difference between quenching in (motor) oil and water, where water quenches super quickly and shocks the metal to maximum hardness= very brittle. Oil, not so aggressive, but the tool will still need to be drawn down. Polish with 320 paper till shiny, reheat to straw color on the shiny and re-quench. This should make the tool tough and pretty hard, maybe in the low to mid 60 Rockwell if you're lucky. Your tool, should it need anything, maybe just needs to be drawn down. It's already too hard. But think long and hard about the angles and how you are using it first. Levering is not permitted on my tools unless it is a heavy mortise chisel.
Good luck.
DanK